Investing with Excessive Charges, Cussed Inflation, & Low Provide

Dave:
The true property trade has been altering quickly during the last couple of years. We’ve seen excessive rates of interest, hovering inflation, a constrained market, and the query is, what ought to traders do? On this episode of Larger Information, we’re going to reply all your burning listener questions concerning the housing market and economic system. Hello traders. I’m your host, Dave Meyer, and for this episode of Larger Information, we’re bringing again our very first larger information visitor approach again. I believe it was like 2021 or 2022, however we’ve got Kathy Fettke becoming a member of us. In case you don’t know Kathy, she’s the co-host of our sister podcast available on the market, and he or she is likely one of the most data-driven, knowledgeable traders on the market. She extensively research and understands the economic system and housing market to assist her make her investing selections. In at this time’s episode, we’re gonna be bringing it again to our group to reply the questions that you just all have concerning the macroeconomic state of affairs and the housing market.
And I believe much more importantly, we’re gonna dive into what it’s best to do with that info, as a result of a whole lot of instances chances are you’ll hear these stats or these figures within the information, nevertheless it’s arduous to know what does that imply for me and my private actual property portfolio. We’re gonna reply that for you all at this time. Earlier than we bounce into your questions, I simply wanna remind you all that when you have a query that you really want answered both by the BiggerPockets group or on the present, you are able to do that. Simply go to biggerpockets.com/boards. It’s a very free approach the place you’ll be able to have a few of your most vital burning investing questions answered. However that allow’s carry on Kathy. Kathy, welcome again to Larger Information, our first ever visitor. It’s very nice to have you ever again on the present.

Kathy:
Oh, it’s so enjoyable to be right here. Thanks.

Dave:
Good. Nicely, I believe it’s acceptable that we’ve got you right here for our first ever larger information consumer generated questions mashup right here. And we’ve got 4 or 5 actually good questions that I’m very excited to get your opinion on. The primary query is, why are rates of interest staying so excessive and what can traders do to nonetheless get into the sport? So let’s simply begin with the primary a part of that query first, and let’s hear your tackle why rates of interest or mortgage charges particularly are staying increased than I believe lots of people thought they might be at this level in 2024.

Kathy:
Yeah, I imply, the way in which to sum it up, it’s a really sophisticated subject, proper? However the way in which I might sum it up is that that is the undoing of the stimulus from Covid. So when there may be any type of main shock to the economic system or like a pandemic or, uh, you understand, folks not paying their mortgages like in 2008, then the federal government truly type of discovered in 2008, Hey, we will repair this drawback by rising the cash provide, printing cash, earning profits low cost to borrow. They usually created this new factor, quantitative easing, the place they may additionally purchase mortgage backed securities. So years later, in 2020 when the pandemic hit, uh, the, the Fed determined, let’s do that once more. And, and purchased mortgage backed securities, numerous them to maintain charges low. It’s very manipulated the housing market in that regard. So then when the economic system mainly recovered and throughout recovered and truly turned too sizzling, uh, they needed to pull all that again. So to simply sum it up, they’re pulling again the stimulus that they did throughout COVID and a part of that’s promoting off these mortgage backed securities. In order that’s one motive. After which the opposite motive is the economic system’s simply been tremendous sizzling, you understand, tremendous sizzling most likely from all that stimulus over covid.

Dave:
Thanks for offering that context, Kathy. And I simply wanna be sure everybody, uh, is following right here and understands. However mainly, mortgage charges rely on a whole lot of issues. The Federal Reserve and their present coverage is a kind of issues, they usually have indicated that they’re more likely to decrease their federal funds fee and that may put some downward stress on mortgage charges, however that hasn’t occurred but. However even when they do this, there are different issues exterior of Fed coverage that impression mortgage charges. One among them is bond yields. That’s most likely crucial factor that we’re, that impacts mortgage charges and bond yields are staying increased than I believe lots of people have anticipated. And really over the course of 2024, like the primary quarter, they’ve truly gone up. And in order that’s why we’ve seen mortgage charges begin to creep up a little bit bit.
After which the third factor is, what’s going on within the mortgage-backed securities market? Once you exit and purchase a mortgage, uh, the financial institution doesn’t maintain onto that. They really often wind up packaging it collectively, uh, with different mortgages and promote it to different traders. That’s known as a mortgage backed safety. And when there’s a whole lot of demand, when a whole lot of traders wanna purchase that stuff, mortgage charges are typically decrease. However when there may be not a whole lot of demand for mortgage-backed securities banks have to supply increased rates of interest to these mortgage-backed safety traders to entice them to exit and purchase them mortgages. And that is likely one of the issues that’s occurring proper now, is that there’s a lot of mortgage-backed securities hitting the market. There’s not sufficient demand for them, and that’s pushing costs up. So simply these issues collectively most likely offer you a good image of why mortgages are staying a bit increased than lots of people have been anticipating at this level within the 12 months. So Kathy, let’s truly change gears now that we’ve answered that and speak about what traders can do on this increased rate of interest surroundings to nonetheless get into the sport.

Kathy:
So I’ve been doing this for over 25 years, and one factor I can inform a brand new investor is actual property’s actually thrilling as a result of it’s by no means the identical. It’s all the time altering their cycles. And with every cycle you need to be taught a brand new technique. In order that’s all it’s at this time. Don’t, don’t freak out. That was a cycle of low rates of interest due to what we simply mentioned. And that meant, wow, you possibly can purchase lock in charges at actually low costs, you possibly can purchase extra and have a decrease fee. Uh, now it’s after all modified. You’ve acquired increased charges and that actually has minimize out the competitors. So it is a completely different cycle. And earlier than, when charges have been low, there have been, there was numerous competitors. Now you don’t have that. So this provides you a greater likelihood to barter. Just some years in the past, I, I do know at the very least the place I’m from, you understand, in California there was no negotiation.
You made a suggestion, you couldn’t even get inspections. Like, it’s like, no, I’ve acquired 100 different individuals who need this property. You get what you get. It’s not like that at this time. So you’ve gotten extra alternative to barter. You possibly can take a look at properties which were available on the market for for much longer. You possibly can negotiate with builders who’re sitting on stock they usually can’t promote it due to these rates of interest. So it’s only a completely different technique and it’s one. It’s an important one. I desire it. I might moderately negotiate with one individual than must battle off 100 traders or consumers. Proper?

Dave:
Completely. I I, I completely agree. And really simply within the final couple of weeks I’ve seen even much less competitors. I don’t know if it’s as a result of mortgage charges have, like they have been hovering at like 6.8, 6.9, they’re now, they’re like a bit above seven and possibly there’s some psychological factor. We’re additionally beginning to see stock come available on the market and begin to tick again up. I personally, like actually within the final week or so, have began to note like lots higher stock. So uhhuh, um, that’s thrilling to me. And the opposite factor I simply, I take into consideration a excessive rate of interest surroundings is after all there’s, there’s commerce offs, however I see one large profit in having increased rates of interest is that it’s form of this pressured self-discipline. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> as a result of it’s tougher to make offers pencil, however they nonetheless do. I don’t find out about you.
I’ve accomplished truly extra offers this 12 months than I did final 12 months. Sure. Um, and it forces you to be actually good at underwriting. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. After which if charges go down, which they most likely will, I don’t know if that’s gonna be this 12 months, subsequent 12 months, two years from now, however your deal will most likely simply get higher over the course of the following couple of years. So should you discover a deal that’s good proper now, it may turn out to be nice. In case you discover a deal that’s nice proper now, it’d turn out to be a house run. So it does make it a little bit bit more difficult to establish that deal, however the efficiency of your deal would possibly truly be higher since you’re investing on this more difficult surroundings. Alright, we’ve got to take a fast break, however as you understand, rates of interest aren’t the one burning query in your minds. So we’re gonna get into inflation, whether or not the pattern in direction of working part-time is pushing us in direction of a recession and if housing costs are these rattling millennials fault after the break. So stick round. Welcome again traders. I’m right here with Kathy Fettke and we’re answering your questions concerning the economic system and the housing market. So let’s bounce again in.

Kathy:
And I simply wanna add one factor, Dave. These usually are not, this isn’t a excessive rate of interest surroundings <snicker>. That’s true. It’s, it’s increased than it was, however persons are are freaking out. Like we’re within the 20% vary or one thing. Six to 7% is regular, it’s common. We’re simply again to regular. However that’s complicated to individuals who have been having fun with not regular for some time, proper?

Dave:
<snicker>? Completely. Yeah. In case you, should you look again to the, the early eighties, so, you understand, within the late seventies issues went loopy. Mortgage charges have been up at like 18%. In case you take a look at, since that they got here again down, the long-term common is about 7% or six and alter, I believe. So, you understand, we’re again to that. I I do assume that we’ll most likely see charges get right down to the low sixes, possibly excessive fives within the subsequent 12 months or two. Um, uh, however I believe, you understand, the period of three% could also be gone perpetually. I believe 4% is unlikely anytime quickly. And so we’re all gonna must get used to this indirectly. And naturally we’d wish to get the very best fee. Everybody ought to be making an attempt to get the, the very best fee. However, uh, I believe the earlier you’ll be able to regulate your techniques to this new actuality, the higher. As a result of that is actuality.

Kathy:
Yeah, it’s actuality. And you may negotiate the rate of interest. I simply acquired a 4 and three quarter % rate of interest as a result of I’ve a wired builder, pay that down for me. So that you’re not caught with these charges, you understand, and that’s a part of negotiation. It’s like, yeah, I’ll purchase this place that’s been available on the market, however you’ll want to put in some cash and pay down my fee.

Dave:
Wow. That’s a, that’s an important deal. Good for you <snicker>. I’m, I’m joyful for you. You discovered that deal and uh, yeah, only a professional tip that, uh, builders are doing a whole lot of buydown nonetheless even into 2024. Uh, it’s tip there. That’s form of transition. Now then to our second query, which is, uh, quote, with inflation considerations on the rise, how would possibly actual property traders regulate their investing methods to hedge towards potential inflationary pressures? So there’s a pair issues to this query. Lemme simply begin. Thi this, uh, individual requested with inflation considerations on the rise, are your inflation considerations on the rise? Kathy?

Kathy:
No, inflation has been coming down steadily. So simply watch out of headlines. That’s my been my, like what I’ve been making an attempt to inform the world, like watch out of headlines as a result of inflation went up ever so barely these previous couple of months, nevertheless it’s down dramatically from the place it was. And should you’re in building and we’re at actual wealth, we do a whole lot of new, new builds, it has come down dramatically the place the numbers are making way more sense. Now. There may be inflation in insurance coverage. And that is only a, a rumour factor, however I spoke with somebody final night time who could be very near some higher stage folks in insurance coverage and he or she mentioned, you understand, it’s gonna come round. It’s, they’re making up for losses and finally, and in some unspecified time in the future insurance coverage charges will come down too. I don’t know if that’s right here, you understand, I don’t know if that’s true, however we, we infl, um, insurance coverage is certainly a problem, however in any other case general inflation’s been coming down. So no, not a priority for me right now. Yeah,

Dave:
I believe for me, I’m a little bit bit involved that inflation goes to remain at its present fee longer than we want. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. And only for context, the Fed has this goal that we gained’t get into it as considerably arbitrary. It was made up in New Zealand like within the nineties, and for some motive everybody, each nation on this planet simply follows this 2% goal. Um, however they wanna get to it, they wanna get to this 2% goal. And proper now we’re a little bit bit above 3% and I don’t personally have a whole lot of concern that we’re gonna see a re-acceleration of inflation. , it’d fluctuate a little bit bit over the following few months, however I don’t assume we’re gonna see 4 or 5% anytime, um, within the subsequent 12 months or two. Um, my concern is that it’s gonna, that we would simply get caught the place we’re proper now and that implies that the Fed is gonna hold charges actually excessive and though they’re solely gonna do this if the economic system’s doing nicely, I do assume that that would have some long term implications for the housing market as a result of if the Fed retains charges excessive, if mortgage charges keep excessive, that doesn’t imply you’ll be able to’t make investments per our earlier dialog, however I do assume it’s gonna hold stock actually locked up.
I believe that’s form of the important thing factor right here is that if mortgage charges keep excessive, we’re unlikely to see a breaking of the quote unquote lock in impact, which should you’re unfamiliar mainly simply means lots of people don’t wanna promote their home proper now ’trigger they’ve these wonderful mortgage charges and who would wish to do away with them <snicker>. And so, uh, I believe that that’s form of one long-term, um, form of implication right here. So I, I don’t personally agree that there’s gonna be, uh, re-acceleration of inflation. However given, given this query and that inflation remains to be, you understand, round it’s increased than it was actually for the final decade or so, um, and fewer besides the previous few years, Kathy, like how do you account for inflation in your individual investing selections?

Kathy:
So as a result of we’ve got a scarcity of provide, that implies that we’re most likely going to proceed to see inflation in housing, which is sweet for the proprietor of that asset. Not nice should you’re making an attempt to get into it and purchase it ’trigger it’s gonna price extra, however as you maintain it over time, and should you look traditionally for many years, uh, how, uh, actual property costs have gone up over time. So for me, inflation is nice should you personal the asset. It’s actually arduous should you don’t. And that, in my view is what separates the rich from those that are struggling.

Dave:
Yeah, I I imply I believe that the truth that this one who requested posed this query is considering actual property is the reply, proper? Like there’s all types of techniques inside actual property. Most of them are good inflation hedges over over time. Actual property has confirmed to be a superb hedge towards inflation. So whether or not, you understand, Kathy and I are appropriate and we’re gonna see inflation stick round form of considerably the place, the place it’s proper now or if this, uh, query the one who requested this query is appropriate. And inflation does speed up both approach. If actual property is an effective method to hedge towards that inflation, uh, as a result of it’s a bodily asset and since even when the worth of the greenback will get additional diluted, the revenue incomes potential of bodily belongings stays comparatively related whatever the foreign money and the power of that foreign money.
And so, um, that is likely one of the causes I like investing in actual property, um, is as a result of it’s such inflation hedge. So I I believe don’t overthink it, purchase and maintain issues, you’ll be able to even flip homes in an inflationary surroundings. However should you’re in actual property, you’re most likely enthusiastic about issues the best approach to deal with inflation. So the, the third query right here truly flows proper into this nice job to our producers. Uh, the query is about part-time work. It says {that a} report variety of People are selecting to work part-time regardless of a powerful labor market. What does this say concerning the American economic system? Are we coming into recessionary instances? So have you ever heard this that persons are working extra part-time? I’ve

Kathy:
Heard this type of rumor operating round, however once more, I believe should you simply take a look at demographics, it will make a whole lot of sense. It’s nothing to be involved about. Um, you’ve gotten two extraordinarily massive demographic teams at this time. You could have the millennials, it’s the biggest group, after which you’ve gotten the infant boomers and the infant boomers are retiring. So possibly they need a part-time job, however definitely not full-time. And then you definately’ve acquired millennials which are forming households. And should you, should you take a look at the price of daycare, um, you, you’ll want to be working and making some huge cash and dealing a whole lot of hours to cowl the price of daycare. So lots of people who’re simply have gotten a whole lot of, you understand, they’re forming households, they’ve younger youngsters, possibly they simply wanna work whereas their youngsters are at school, you understand, and, and part-time. So I, once more, I don’t assume it’s something to fret about. It simply is smart.

Dave:
Yeah, I I believe there’s a, a mixture of things which are resulting in this and a few of them is individuals who can’t make ends meet with a full-time job. And that stinks, proper? Such as you would anticipate and hope that folks, um, who work full-time are capable of earn a dwelling. Um, so that’s possibly a, a considered one of a foul signal for the US economic system, um, basically. That that’s one class. I believe there’s one other class right here. Once you take a look at a few of the information, it’s people who find themselves, and, and that is the larger classes, people who find themselves opting to work part-time and there’s classes inside classes right here. So a few of these persons are simply getting a aspect hustle ’trigger they wish to earn extra. I, I’ve definitely accomplished this up to now. Um, I’ve had multiple job, um, and uh, attempt to get additional revenue to put money into actual property or to do no matter.
And so persons are nonetheless persevering with to try this. And one of many good components of the American economic system, I believe is that it’s simpler to do a aspect hustle now I believe, than it ever has. And so I do assume that’s most likely one of many causes we’re beginning to see these numbers tick up. Um, a 3rd form of bucket is strictly what Kathy mentioned is like some folks, and I believe this accelerated throughout COVID simply determined that possibly they don’t wanna work part-time. They wanna, you understand, work halftime, whether or not it’s elevating youngsters or maybe they’re labored actually arduous of their profession to get forward and now they’re like, you understand what, I may simply work 20 hours every week or 30 hours every week. In order that’s one. After which the final class, which I hadn’t actually thought of however I regarded into the information right here, is that there are hundreds of thousands of people who find themselves pressured to work part-time as a result of their employers minimize their hours.
And so that’s one other group that I believe that could be a little bit regarding for the economic system. Like should you, if employers are beginning, you understand, possibly we’re not seeing these, uh, adverse outcomes mirrored in a few of the unemployment numbers or a few of the, the, uh, labor statistics. But when that’s occurring, that does present a cooling economic system. However general, um, even once you add all these issues up, like the quantity of people who find themselves working part-time as a result of they’re pressured to is definitely actually low in comparison with historic charges. And so, sure, to me, I don’t assume it is a adverse signal for the economic system simply but, but when these numbers begin to tick up, then I believe it’s one thing to concentrate to.

Kathy:
This explicit article, it says, oh yeah, we’ve job, you understand, the variety of jobs has come down dramatically. Nicely that could be a very, excellent factor. Folks <snicker>. So you need to perceive like, what’s the context right here? We had too many roles, like 12 million job openings and now we’re down to love eight, or I believe it went as much as 9. So I don’t see it as a problem with the economic system. There’s nonetheless 9 million job openings, <snicker>, proper? Yeah, yeah.

Dave:
Proper. So I believe typically talking, folks typically ask me about labor market information and job information. And it’s not for the faint of coronary heart. There isn’t any one good labor market information supply. Such as you type of have to take a look at a whole lot of ’em Yeah. To get a generalized image of what’s happening. Like unemployment fee ought to be a simple quantity, proper? It’s not, it’s lacking a whole lot of stuff. It contains a whole lot of stuff. Have a look at unemployment insurance coverage or job openings or the labor pressure participation fee. There’s all this stuff. So I might warning folks towards simply taking a look at one headline or one information supply should you actually wanna perceive what’s happening within the labor market and possibly both observe somebody who actually understands it rather well or look into quite a lot of sources to attempt to get a extra holistic image about what’s happening. ’trigger these, these single information factors don’t actually offer you a full sufficient image to make investing selections off of.

Kathy:
Completely. Yep.

Dave:
Okay, we’re about to get into our final and spiciest query, however earlier than we do it, we’ve got to take yet one more fast break. And through that break, should you admire getting financial information that’s related to you as an investor proper right here on this podcast, go forward and push the observe button so that you by no means miss an episode. We’ll be proper again. Hey everybody, and welcome again to Larger Information. I’m right here with Kathy Fettke. To this point we’ve coated rates of interest, inflation and the labor market. Let’s get again into it. All proper, for our final query at this time, it’s a discussion board put up from the BiggerPockets boards. It mentioned, oh God, that is everybody all the time blaming millennials. The query is, are millennials responsible for preserving housing costs excessive? Millennials are the most important demographic cohort ever they usually’re simply coming into prime house, shopping for age <snicker>. So Kathy, I’m a millennial, so I’m gonna give a really biased reply right here, however you’re not, so what’s your tackle this?

Kathy:
I simply wanna say I simply love you all on the market and I’m sorry for all these headlines that you understand. Thanks. Child boomers acquired it too. So, you understand, who’s responsible is the individuals who didn’t see 30 years in the past that this was the biggest child growth, proper? We had, we already had a child growth from the prior era and, and the infant boomers are known as that as a result of there was a whole lot of them they usually affected the economic system, proper? As quickly as they went to school, each, you understand, then it was arduous to get into faculty and and so forth. So we already knew what it’s wish to have this python, you understand, this, um, you understand, what, what am I making an attempt? Elephant inside the python, you understand, going via the system. Yeah, precisely. It impacts it. And, um, so to arrange the powers that be ought to have been pondering, wow, this group goes to be at house shopping for age at age 30, maybe we should always have some housing accessible for them.
That didn’t occur. And, after which there was a whole lot of thought, nicely, all these child boomers are gonna be useless by then, so there’ll be loads of housing that that story’s nonetheless going round. However they, they didn’t consider, you understand, to be taught that hey, child boomers are literally actually wholesome, more healthy than every other era and dwelling a very long time. In order that’s not occurring. So I blame the powers that be which have made it very tough to carry on new housing provide. And since at actual wealth, we’re builders, and I do know I take care of this every day of how tough and costly it’s to carry on new provide. I’m gonna blame regulation, you understand, <snicker>, I’m going there. Millennials, you go type your households, purchase a home and ignore the headlines. <snicker>.

Dave:
Yeah, I completely agree with you. And in a approach, this individual is correct as a result of millennials are an enormous consider why housing costs are so excessive and so unaffordable proper now. However the phrase blame I believe is possibly a little bit bit off as a result of it’s not like millennials made some resolution that different generations haven’t made. Like everybody needs to purchase a house, at the very least in American society, you understand, most People wish to purchase a house someplace between the ages of about 29 and 35. Yeah. And proper now the most important demographic group in the US is between 29 and 35. So, like Kathy mentioned, it doesn’t take some statistical genius or some good prediction to know that like we have been gonna see a whole lot of demand for housing during the last couple of years. And so that’s actually vital. And I, I believe what Kathy mentioned is admittedly additionally true is that for years folks have been predicting that it will be offset by the quote unquote silver tsunami, which <snicker> is that this time period that was coined that mainly mentioned that folks, you understand, boomers could be reaching retirement age, they’d be desirous to downsize, they’d be, you understand, dying off.
I do know that’s morbid, however it’s a reality of life. Um, and although that may unencumber housing, however that’s not occurring. Individuals are dwelling longer. And we have been seeing a very similar to approach, approach increased proportion of individuals selecting to age in place, which implies that they wish to keep of their current properties and never go to both, you understand, an, uh, assisted care facility right into a nursing house, no matter it’s. Um, and so that’s taking on extra stock. So are millennials responsible? No, I believe it’s this entire complicated demographics and societal factor, however is the demographics of how large the millennial era is an enormous issue. Yeah, completely.

Kathy:
, I believe if we’re gonna play the blame recreation, we should always blame the boomers for having kids <snicker>. Yeah.

Dave:
It’s not like we selected to get born after we,

Kathy:
That wasn’t, that was my resolution.

Dave:
<snicker>, that’s my mother and father’ fault

Kathy:
Precisely. Accountable the boomers. However

Dave:
I do assume that that is form of, it, it’s factor to consider as a result of it does in my thoughts, present a tailwind for housing costs for the following a number of years at the very least. And I do get lots of people asking like, okay, so when the, the millennials transfer via, does that imply that housing costs are gonna tank to me that, you understand, I I believe there’s a likelihood that we see much less fast appreciation as a result of we’ll see like a, a a relative decline in demand. However that doesn’t imply that like all these millennials who simply tried actually arduous for many years to purchase a home are rapidly gonna begin promoting them. , by most estimates we’ve got a, a scarcity of someplace between three and seven million housing items in the US. Um, and, uh, you understand, there are a whole lot of causes to consider there’s gonna be sustained ranges of demand relative to the quantity of provide that we’ve got out there.

Kathy:
Yeah. And should you’re apprehensive about that, then you actually need to concentrate to, once more, the what drives housing. And there could possibly be locations the place they overbuilt and there could possibly be locations the place they’re not encouraging job progress. And in these areas the place they might be overbuilt they usually’re not making it they usually’re not job pleasant, there could possibly be an actual softening in costs. Identical to we noticed a softening within the San Francisco Bay space in, um, in rents, uh, as folks have been type of capable of work remotely and, and reside someplace inexpensive. So I simply to guard myself from that chance, I’m all the time ensuring I’m investing in an space the place there’s sturdy job progress and inhabitants progress, however they, they’re not on the trail of overbuilding.

Dave:
All proper. Nicely, this was enjoyable, Kathy, I, this I admire you becoming a member of us for our first ever consumer generated consumer query present on the larger information phase of the BiggerPockets podcast. That’s, that could be a mouthful. We’re gonna must work on that one. You probably did

Kathy:
Nicely, that was good. <snicker>

Dave:
<snicker>, thanks. It was, it was actually tough. Thanks. <snicker> <snicker>. Alright, nicely thanks once more Kathy, and thanks all for listening. We actually admire you. And simply as a reminder, if you wish to have your query answered on the BiggerPockets podcast, simply go to biggerpockets.com/boards, ask a query. It can hopefully be answered by lots of people in our group, however there’s an opportunity that me, Kathy, or one of many different podcast hosts shall be answering your query proper right here on this podcast For BiggerPockets. I’m Dave Meyer. She’s Kathy Fettke, and we’ll see you quickly.